A Complete Collection of State Trials Vol. XXIII – Thomas Jones Howell (1817): Difference between revisions
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[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fnb1akvdAsMC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPT10,M1 Full Version of A Complete Collection of State Trials Vol. XXIII – Thomas Jones Howell (1817) at Google Books] | [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fnb1akvdAsMC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPT10,M1 Full Version of A Complete Collection of State Trials Vol. XXIII – Thomas Jones Howell (1817) at Google Books] | ||
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I went to Mr. Campbell's, and asked if he had left it; he said yes, he had left something for me yonder, at Mr. Campbell's, which I would know what to do with.<br /> | I went to Mr. Campbell's, and asked if he had left it; he said yes, he had left something for me yonder, at Mr. Campbell's, which I would know what to do with.<br /> | ||
What was it you were to do with them? — That was what Watt said to me, I knew what to do with them. <br /> | What was it you were to do with them? — That was what Watt said to me, I knew what to do with them. <br /> | ||
What were you to do with them? — I will tell you what I did, I called upon different people in the west country. <br /> | What were you to do with them? — I will tell you what I did, I called upon different people in the west country. <br /> | ||
At what different places of the west country ? — At Queensferry, Stirling, Saint Ninians, Kilsyth, Kirkintulloch, Campsie, Glasgow, Paisley, and Falkirk.<br /> | At what different places of the west country? — At Queensferry, Stirling, Saint Ninians, Kilsyth, Kirkintulloch, Campsie, Glasgow, Paisley, and Falkirk.<br /> | ||
What did you do at all those places? — I gave them a copy of each of these.<br /> | What did you do at all those places? — I gave them a copy of each of these.<br /> | ||
You gave a copy of each of these, at each place you have named? — Yes.<br /> | You gave a copy of each of these, at each place you have named? — Yes.<br /> | ||
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Then it was perfectly left to you to go to any place you pleased in the west of Scotland? — I suppose it was left to my own discretion.<br /> | Then it was perfectly left to you to go to any place you pleased in the west of Scotland? — I suppose it was left to my own discretion.<br /> | ||
Did any person recommend you to go to Borrowstounness? — I do not recollect any<br /> | Did any person recommend you to go to Borrowstounness? — I do not recollect any<br /> | ||
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more about going to Borrowstounness than what I have said.<br /> | more about going to Borrowstounness than what I have said.<br /> | ||
Did you go to Borrowstounness? — I went first to Stirling, and came through Borrowstounness in coming back.<br /> | Did you go to Borrowstounness? — I went first to Stirling, and came through Borrowstounness in coming back.<br /> | ||
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''Lord Advocate''. — Begin at the top and read the three or four first lines legibly and audibly to the jury. — "Stirling, support by money."<br /> | ''Lord Advocate''. — Begin at the top and read the three or four first lines legibly and audibly to the jury. — "Stirling, support by money."<br /> | ||
Tell me what word that is that is next to money? — It is a blank.<br /> | Tell me what word that is that is next to money? — It is a blank.<br /> | ||
What is the meaning of that blank? there are three letters and a stroke between them, see what it is and make it out from them? — I suppose it is "courage." | What is the meaning of that blank? there are three letters and a stroke between them, see what it is and make it out from them? — I suppose it is "courage." | ||
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''Lord Advocate''. — Read it on now.<br /> | ''Lord Advocate''. — Read it on now.<br /> | ||
''Witness''. — "Stirling, support by money, courage not great."<br /> | ''Witness''. — "Stirling, support by money, courage not great."<br /> | ||
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Now, did he show you any written paper? | Now, did he show you any written paper?<br /> | ||
Recollect as near as you can, not the words, I do not want them if you cannot exactly state them, but state as well as you can, the purport of the written paper he shewed you. — I cannot pretend to state the real purport, I will state the general purport of the paper.<br /> | |||
Recollect as near as you can, not the words, I do not want them if you cannot exactly state them, but state as well as you can, the purport of the written paper he shewed you.— I cannot pretend to state the real purport, I will state the general purport of the paper. | What was it about? — He mentioned that some money was wanted. I think he mentioned Mr. Skirving and some other sufferers in the cause of freedom, and wished the society would endeavour to procure something for that purpose.<br /> | ||
Mr. ''Anstruther''. — That is not the written instructions, but conversation; I want you to state the contents of his written instructions. — There is nothing particular that I can recollect of his written instructions, except it be one part of his instructions.<br /> | |||
What | Speak out, and state that part of his instructions you do remember. — Why I am not absolutely certain of it. That there were to be collectors of a certain number, whether fourteen or not I cannot say, and they were to be provided with<br /> | ||
What? — I cannot say, it was a blank.<br /> | |||
Mr. Anstruther. | What did you say? — Provided with, or provide themselves with.<br /> | ||
''Jury''. — Who were to be provided? — The collectors or the people, I do not recollect exactly which.<br /> | |||
Speak out, and state that part of his instructions you do remember. | Mr. ''Anstruther''. — Provided with what? — I did not see any thing.<br /> | ||
Was it a blank? — Yes, it appeared to me a blank.<br /> | |||
What ? | Now, Dr. Forrest, what conversation had you with Mr. Fairley on that subject? — I do not remember the conversation particularly; I аm ready to answer any question so far as I know, but I cannot pretend to state the whole of a conversation I do not particularly remember.<br /> | ||
What was the import of Fairley's conversation with you? — The import seemed to me to be to know in what state Stirling was, and to procure money for the relief of those that buffered in the cause of reform.<br /> | |||
What did you say ? | Did it appear to you to be proper or improper conversation? — I do not know whether I am a proper judge or not.<br /> | ||
How did it strike yourself; was it any thing about arming? — I do not recollect that any thing about arms was mentioned.<br /> | |||
Jury. | What occurred to you at the time to be the meaning of that blank? — Am I here to state facts I positively know, or fill up that blank with what I conjecture, or not?<br /> | ||
''Lord President''. The meaning of that conversation, you are bound if you know it, to explain. [No answer.]<br /> | |||
Mr. | ''Lord Juttice Clerk''. — You must have had some idea at the time, tell the Court and jury what it was.<br /> | ||
Did you ask Fairley what that blank was? — I really did not, I was rather adverse to asking him any questions about it.<br /> | |||
Was it a blank ? | VOL. XXIII. | ||
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Now, Dr. Forrest, what conversation had you with Mr. Fairley on that subject ? | Why were you adverse? — It seemed a little odd there should have been any blank.<br /> | ||
What construction did you put upon it? — I fancied it might be something that might not be proper for me to investigate or inquire into.<br /> | |||
What was the import of Fairley's conversation with you ? | ''Lord President''. — What do you mean by that something? — I suppose, had it been a proper thing, it would naturally have been filled up.<br /> | ||
Did you suppose it was arms? — Yes, my lord, I did.<br /> | |||
Did it appear to you to be proper or improper conversation ? | Why did you not mention it before? — I thought I was not to give any conjectures.<br /> | ||
Mr. ''Anstruther''. — You have told me you supposed the blank was to be filled up with the word arms, what did you say to Fairley upon that? — I do not recollect immediately what passed.<br /> | |||
How did it strike yourself; was it any thing about arming ? | ''Lord Advocate''. — It having occurred to you this blank meant arms, did you or did you not prohibit Fairley to proceed any farther? — It was mentioned to him. I believe I mentioned it to him myself. I did not wish to have it in our power to injure anyone; but he should be cautious of what he said.<br /> | ||
Now, sir, did Fairley accordingly stop upon that caution which you gave him? — I do not remember what particularly followed that.<br /> | |||
What occurred to you at the time to be the meaning of that blank? | Did he ask you any thing with regard to the number of friends in Stirling or its neighbourhood, or with regard to the friends in whom they could place any reliance? — I am really not certain whether he did or not.<br /> | ||
Then, did Fairley mention to you any thing with respect to pikes being manufactured or provided in Edinburgh? — I do not recollect the word pikes was mentioned.<br /> | |||
Lord President. The meaning of that conversation, you are bound if you know it, to explain. [No answer.] | Arms of any kind? — Arms, I do not recollect.<br /> | ||
Weapons? — No, my lord, — he made something of a form like one of these upon a bit of paper.<br /> | |||
Lord | Say that out to the jury, I hope you are not concealing the truth? — It was something like a soldier's halbert; we were talking about an invasion, or some such thing, and we were asking about such things for the purpose of defence.<br /> | ||
And he drew something like this, upon a paper upon the table? — Yes.<br /> | |||
Did | After he drew that instrument, what did he say farther; did he say any number of those were provided or providing; and where were they so providing? — I do not recollect any particular number; if I recollect right, he said he knew some person who could procure instruments of that kind.<br /> | ||
Did he mention the name of the person, or place where he resided? — He did not mention the name of the person that I recollect. Did he convey to you, or did you understand where that person resided, from Fairley's conversation? — The idea I had at the time, was, it was somewhere about Edinburgh; I cannot pretend to give it positive; it was my conjecture. | |||
VOL. | |||
Why were you adverse ? | |||
What construction did you put upon it? | |||
Did you suppose it was arms | |||
Why did you not mention it before? | |||
Mr. Anstruther. | |||
Lord Advocate. | |||
Now, sir, did Fairley accordingly stop upon that caution which you gave him? | |||
Did he ask you any thing with regard to the number of friends in Stirling or its | |||
Then, did Fairley mention to you any thing with respect to pikes being manufactured or provided in Edinburgh ? | |||
Arms of any kind ? | |||
Weapons ? | |||
Say that out to the jury, I hope you are not concealing the truth ? | |||
And he drew something like this, upon a paper upon the table ? | |||
Did he mention the name of the person, or place where he resided ? | |||
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Mr. | Mr. ''Anstruther''. — Now, Dr Forrest, did Mr. Fairley remain with you after the company separated? — Yes. He slept in my house.<br /> | ||
Now, I want you to tell me what conversation passed between you and Mr. Fairley, after the company separated? — Very little. It was about midnight, and I went very soon to bed.<br /> | |||
Did he say any thing about collectors ? | Did he say any thing about collectors? — It was mentioned; I am not certain whether it was mentioned in the printed or written instructions.<br /> | ||
Did Fairley say any thing about them? — He mentioned something about them.<br /> | |||
Did Fairley say any thing about them? | Did he say any thing to you; and I desire you to recollect, that you are a person in a considerable situation of life, that you are speaking in a great audience, who hear you, — and above all, upon your oath; answer this question distinctly, did Mr. Fairley or not, say to you any thing relative to a rising of the people, in any way whatsoever? Now answer that question distinctly and plainly. — Something was stated to that purpose; but whether he asserted it was a thing agreed upon; or as a thing that might possibly be done, or as a thing that might happen, I cannot say upon my oath.<br /> | ||
Now, did he, or not, say any thing to you, respecting disarming the soldiers? — That was mentioned.<br /> | |||
Did he say any thing to you ; and I desire you to recollect, that you are a person in a considerable situation of life, that you are speaking in a great audience, who hear you, | Whom was it mentioned by? — If I recollect it was Fairley.<br /> | ||
Now, what was mentioned about disarming the soldiers? — That, my lord, I have heard so frequently in other places, and in the common conversation of the day, I cannot pretend to say the particulars Fairley related; but it occurs to me, he mentioned the circumstance about disarming the soldiers.<br /> | |||
Now, did he, or not, say any | Who was to disarm them? — I do not know whether he said that it could be done, by taking their arms while they were absent, or in the night season; I am not absolutely certain of it.<br /> | ||
Who was todo it? — He did not state who was to do it, if I recollect.<br /> | |||
Whom was it mentioned by? | Was it the Friends of the People, or was it not? — He did not mention the Friends of the People.<br /> | ||
Was it the people that sent Fairley there, or not? — He did not say.<br /> | |||
Now, what was mentioned about disarming the soldiers | Did you understand, from the conversation that you had with Fairley, that this plan, such as it was, was to be effected by the people who had sent Fairley there? — I cannot say, upon my oath, whether it was an agreed plan.<br /> | ||
''Lord Advocate''. — That is a different thing.<br /> | |||
Who was to disarm them? | Mr. ''Anstruther''. — I do not ask whether it was an agreed thing or not — or whether a thing that might be done — or was to be done - if it ever was done who did you understand it was to be done by — Did you not understand if it was ever done, it was to be done by the persons who sent Fairley there? — Perhaps.<br /> | ||
Do not you tell me perhaps - was that your idea? — Yes, my lord. | |||
Who was todo it ? | | | ||
Did Fairley tell you any thing or not respecting imprisoning certain people at Edinburgh? — So far as I recollect he mentioned some people were to be put up; but he did not state names as far as I recollect.<br /> | |||
Was it the Friends of the People, or was it not ? | But some people were to be put up — to be imprisoned? — That is what I meant.<br /> | ||
Whom were they to he put up by? — I suppose the same people that were to seize and take the soldiers arms.<br /> | |||
Was it the people that sent Fairley there, or not ? | Did you understand from the conversation this was to be done by the people who sent Fairley to the country? — Yes, my lord.<br /> | ||
Did Mr. Fairley tell you any thing — or say any thing to you about certain people in Edinburgh repenting of their conduct? - Yes, my lord — that probably some would repent — or regret their conduct — or some such words.<br /> | |||
Did you understand, from the conversation that you had with Fairley, that this plan, such as it was, was to be effected by the | Now if I understand you — were not those people who were to be made to repent their conduct the people that were meant to be put up? — I understood so.<br /> | ||
Certainly it would have been much better for a gentleman in your situation of life to have told this story plainly, than to have had it screwed out of you in the manner it has been. I ask you now, whom Fairley desired you to correspond with? — I think he mentioned, what money was to be collected on the behalf and relief of suffering friends, was to be sent to a Mr. Downie.<br /> | |||
Lord Advocate. | Now, I ask you again; and I desire you to recollect, what it was Fairley said to you with respect to collectors; or what their duty was to be, what they were to do? Were they to be for every fourteen or fifteen members the society censisted of? — Yes.<br /> | ||
What were those collectors to do over these fourteen or fifteen? — He did not state what they were to do.<br /> | |||
Do not you tell me | Were they to collect nothing but money? — He did not say any thing else but money.<br /> | ||
Upon your oath were the collectors to command the people whether they were to rise or not? — He did not say so.<br /> | |||
Did Fairley tell you any | Did you understand that from him? — I had that idea.<br /> | ||
Did you gather that idea from the conversation you had with Fairley? — Yes, I did.<br /> | |||
But some people were to be put | Mr. ''Anstruther'' to the Jury. — He gathered the idea that the collectors were to head and command the people when they did rise, from the conversation with Fairley.<br /> | ||
Had you no other conversation about arming? — None that I recollect.<br /> | |||
Whom were they to he put up by ? | What led to the conversation between Fairley and you, upon which Fairlcy drew the plan of a pike upon the table? — The subject we were talking of was, the prospect of an invasion.<br /> | ||
Had you any conversation about a convention? — The convention was mentioned.<br /> | |||
Did you understand from the conversation this was to | What was said about a convention? — I do not recollect; there was some talk about it; I cannot recollect it<br /> | ||
Was it that there was to be a convention or none? — They expected there was to be a convention, | |||
Did Mr. | |||
Now if I understand | |||
Certainly it would have been much better for a gentleman in your situation of life to have told this | |||
Now, I ask you again ; and I desire you to recollect, what it was Fairley said to you with respect to collectors; or what their duty was to be, what they were to do ? Were they to be for every fourteen or fifteen members the society censisted of? | |||
What were those collectors to do over these fourteen or fifteen? | |||
Were they to | |||
Upon your oath were the collectors to command the people whether they were to rise or not ? | |||
Did you understand | |||
Did you gather that idea | |||
Mr. Anstruther to the Jury. | |||
Had you no other conversation about arming? | |||
What led to the conversation between | |||
Had you any conversation about a convention ? | |||
What was said about a convention? | |||
Was it that there was to be a convention or none ? | |||
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Where was the convention to meet? | Where was the convention to meet? — It was not known.<br /> | ||
Was it to meet in Scotland or England? — I do not know.<br /> | |||
Was it to meet in Scotland or England ? | Had you no conversation about it? — Yes.<br /> | ||
What was it? — Little more than what I have told you.<br /> | |||
Had you no conversation about it ? | You have told me nothing yet; you have told me you had a conversation about a convention; what was it? — It was said a convention was to meet, but no time nor place nentioned.<br /> | ||
What sort of convention was it, was it of the Royal Burghs? — It was a convention similar to that which met in Edinburgh, of the Friends of the People.<br /> | |||
What was it? | You were a member of that convention? - No.<br /> | ||
You were a member of the society of the Friends of the People? — Yes, I was. | |||
You have told | |||
What sort of convention was it, was it of | |||
You were a member of that convention ? | |||
You were a member of the society of the | |||
Cross-examined by Mr. ''Hamilton''. | |||
Pray, was it your own conjecture, or did Fairley tell you there were concerted measures taken; that it was absolutely a fixed matter there was to be a rising here? — I gathered that from the purport of his language.<br /> | |||
What did you gather? — That the people who were provided with such instruments might defend themselves in case of an attack.<br /> | |||
That was the conjecture you gathered from the conversation of Fairley with you? — [No answer.]<br /> | |||
Mr. ''Anstruther''. — Did you or not, from the purport of Fairley's conversation, gather that there was to be a rising of the people, and seizing the soldiers arms? — Yes.<br /> | |||
Did you ever see a circular letter signed "T. Hardy ?" — I do not recollect it.<br /> | |||
Did you ever see that letter, or a similar letter? [showing him a letter.] — No, my lord, I never saw it.<br /> | |||
I want now to read this circular letter, which has been proved by witnesses, and is also proved to have been carried by Fairley round the country. It is the printed circular letter from the Committee of Ways and Means.<br /> | |||
"Fellow Citizens ;<br /> | |||
"At a time when power seems to be making such rapid strides amongst us, while the friends of freedom are persecuted and hunted down on every side, and the genuine principles of the constitution repeatedly violated by those who, at the time they are professing their attachment to it, are aiming the secret blow which undermines it, the friends of peace and reform in Edinburgh call upon their brethren throughout the kingdom: we call upon you to warn you of your danger; we would remind you of the present melancholy state of affairs, our commerce diminished, our manufactures drooping, the industrious pооr wanting bread, and the mingled cries of the widow and orphan assailing the ears of heaven ! These, these are only a part of the | |||
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cruel effects of the most disastrous and bloody war, the end of which is wrapped up in a gloomy obscurity, which has scarcely one ray of hope to penetrate or illumine: in the mean time, we behold armed associations forming in different parts of the country; we see the partial selection of citizens, who are entrusted with arms, and shudder in contemplating what may be the motive of this alarming and novel procedure.<br /> | |||
"Under these circumstances, what is our resource? Citizens, there is but one thing that can rescue us, a complete reform in parliament. Let us not be awed into a servile submission by any illegal artifices. Let us not sink before the blast of oppression, but let us unite firmer than ever, and the number of voices that call for redress of our grievances shall yet be heard; but never let us relinquish this great work.<br /> | |||
"Remember, that till we are fairly represented, no check can ever be opposed to the strides of power; but we may be crushed beneath its weight, like a worm beneath the foot of the passenger.<br /> | |||
"In the mean time, we send you a few rules, which are drawn up for the use of our own societies; we recommend them to you, and hope they will be equally serviceable. A committee of union is appointed here, to express the united wishes of the several societies; and a sub-committee, which is called the Committee of Ways and Means, as treasurers for the united societies, and a centre of union for all friends in Scotland. Through their medium, directions and instructions will be given. The money put into their hands will be accounted for, and disbursed in such a way as shall be most calculated to promote our great cause. If, therefore, you have any sums collected beyond what your immediate exigencies require, or if you can collect any among your friends, though they should not be members of societies, you are requested to remit the same to Mr. Edinburgh, who is appointed to receive the several sums for the committee.<br /> | |||
"We should also wish to be informed of the number of friends which you have, on whose patriotism you can rely with the most implicit confidence, and who you are sure will spare no exertion whatever in promoting the great cause in which we are engaged.<br /> | |||
"We would thank you to communicate the best method of making our mutual sentiments known to each other, and the person to whom our letters may be addressed with the greatest safety. Direct your letters as above, for Mr. We beg for an answer with all convenient speed, and remain, your brethren and fellow citizens,<br /> | |||
"The Committee of W. and M."<br /> | |||
Which means Ways and Means.<br /> | |||
Mr. ''Anstruther''. — We will read a paragraph or two of this paper, called "Fundamental Principles or Regulations of the Societies " | |||
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Latest revision as of 14:41, 10 April 2009
pp1289-1302
I went to Mr. Campbell's, and asked if he had left it; he said yes, he had left something for me yonder, at Mr. Campbell's, which I would know what to do with. |
more about going to Borrowstounness than what I have said. | |
with these persons? — We might be there an hour or two. |
Did you ever see them before? — No. | |
gress, as your warrant? — I never was in the societies, but I showed them to the persons I spoke with. |
Lord Advocate. — Read it on now. | |
not desire the particular words; but tell me what the general purport of your instructions was as far as you recollect, and what plan it was it referred to? — I did not say the plan. |
Whom were the committee of secrecy to correspond with? — They were to correspond with Mr. Downie. Cross-examined by Mr. Hamilton. I wish to know Mr. Fairley, did Mr. Watt at any time say to you he had any intention of mastering the soldiery any where, of making himself master of the soldiers? you mentioned in the former part of your deposition you had some apprehension about the soldiers, and Watt said he had no fear, and be conceived there were a great many friends, and repeated it. I wish to know whether Watt expressed himself so that he proposed the soldiers should be got the better of — I do not recollect his ever saying any thing about getting the better of the forces. Dr. Forrest sworn. Mr. Anstruther. — Where do you live? — In Stirling. | |
Now, did he show you any written paper? |
Why were you adverse? — It seemed a little odd there should have been any blank. | |
Mr. Anstruther. — Now, Dr Forrest, did Mr. Fairley remain with you after the company separated? — Yes. He slept in my house. |
Did Fairley tell you any thing or not respecting imprisoning certain people at Edinburgh? — So far as I recollect he mentioned some people were to be put up; but he did not state names as far as I recollect. | |
Where was the convention to meet? — It was not known. Cross-examined by Mr. Hamilton. Pray, was it your own conjecture, or did Fairley tell you there were concerted measures taken; that it was absolutely a fixed matter there was to be a rising here? — I gathered that from the purport of his language. |
cruel effects of the most disastrous and bloody war, the end of which is wrapped up in a gloomy obscurity, which has scarcely one ray of hope to penetrate or illumine: in the mean time, we behold armed associations forming in different parts of the country; we see the partial selection of citizens, who are entrusted with arms, and shudder in contemplating what may be the motive of this alarming and novel procedure. |